GUY RAZ, Host:
Jay Bakker has one of the most famous last names in evangelical Christianity, or perhaps infamous, being the son of Jim and Tammy Faye Bakker.
RAZ: The PTL Television Network presents Jim and Tammy.
RAZ: But he never lost his connection to faith, and he's written about it in a new book called "Falling to Grace." Back in 1994, Jay Bakker cofounded Revolution Church, a place that was designed to be everything his parents' empire was not. For one thing, the church meets in a Brooklyn bar. And, well, then there's the preacher, Jay Bakker.
M: Well, I'm about 5'8", covered in tattoos. I have full tat sleeves and my fingers tattooed. I wear a leather jacket and jeans usually and a T-shirt.
(SOUNDBITE OF LAUGHTER)
M: So, Marlon Brando's probably one of my fashion icons with my hair, which is awesome.
RAZ: I think you look a lot - I mean, strikingly similar to your father, Jim Bakker, if Jim Bakker was in a hardcore punk band.
(SOUNDBITE OF LAUGHTER)
RAZ: That's what you look like.
M: He was for a while.
RAZ: He was before he went into the ministry.
M: Yeah, I do. I look a lot like my father.
RAZ: The tattoos isn't just about, sort of describing your appearance, but it's actually a pretty fundamental part of who you are because of what those tattoos say. And I want to ask you about some of them. You have one on your body that says, religion destroys.
M: Yes.
RAZ: Can you explain that?
M: Well, I got it probably 10 years ago. And it's just the idea that manmade religion and tradition really hurt people. And we use it as a game. And my idea back then, especially, was more of promoting a relationship with Jesus and following the life of Christ and not being religious about it. Religion can be a very dangerous thing, and I think it's a constant reminder to me to be careful.
RAZ: The word grace shows up in this book a lot, and it's a word you use a lot. When you use that word, what do you mean?
M: And to me, that's grace. And grace gives us the ability to love others and love our enemies, which is sometimes a very tall order.
RAZ: You are a pastor. You have a ministry. It meets in a bar in Williamsburg, which is like sort of the mecca, I guess, for hipster America. You know, where you got a lot of kids in skinny jeans riding fixed-gear bikes.
M: A lot of adults.
RAZ: You end your sermons asking your members to tip the bartender on their way out. Describe what a typical service is like because you're in a bar.
M: Yeah. Well, service is usually, we - people get there early. Some people get drinks, some people don't. I speak usually for 45 minutes to an hour sometimes. Then, we dismiss and then we hang out some more.
RAZ: You have been very vocal about your support for things like gay marriage, that you believe abortion should be legal. I mean, couldn't somebody argue that you have actually just taken sort of liberal or left-wing ideas and applied them to your faith?
M: And I think it's the opposite of what I understand from the teachings of Christ, and even the teachings of Paul, even though a lot of people will blame Paul for what some people call the clobber scriptures against the LGBTQ community. And I believe that the church is unfortunately still the taillight, as Martin Luther King used to say. And I'm hoping that we can become the headlight one day.
RAZ: I know that you were very close with your mother and with her up to the moment when she passed away. Talk a little bit about your relationship with your dad. What is it like?
M: So it's gotten to the point where we're not trying to change each other. I think we're just trying to understand each other.
RAZ: You've been accused of sort of engaging in what some people call cafeteria Christianity, pick and choose what you want. On your Facebook page - and I don't - I haven't seen it recently, but it did say that the - under religion, it did say changing.
M: Yeah.
RAZ: And you have questioned or wondered whether things like hell exist, whether the Bible really does condemn homosexuality, whether Sodomites were nothing more than simply people from the town of Sodom.
M: Right.
RAZ: Can you sort of explain how you sort of get to that point with some of those issues?
M: The Bible isn't a book that you can just pick up and just read as a sixth grade level. I mean, it's a good book, and I want people to read it. But as soon as you start to look deeper into the book itself and to the context and to when it was written, things start to change, and you start to see things in a different way and realize that maybe we've been taking a really elementary understanding of Christianity.
RAZ: Do you pray every day?
M: No. I try to pray every day but there's sometimes where my doubt gets the best of me.
RAZ: Hmm. I'm sure a lot of people would be surprised to hear that. But you are an abiding Christian. I mean, you are a faithful Christian.
M: Yeah, most of the time. You know, I mean, like I said, doubt is a big part of my faith. And without doubt, I feel like there's no growth. So, you know, it's a constant struggle. And - but to me, it's a beautiful struggle.
RAZ: Jay, thank you so much.
M: Thank you.